Typically, pool water is considered electrically conductive due to dissolved chemicals. Buy Now 3. The bonding conductor is to be extended from the equipotential bonding grid to an accessible location near the motor. All "PoolBond" electrical pool bonding fitting are UL approved and will not void any warranties. The metal shall be copper, brass, bronze, or other corrosion- resistant material or may be chrome plated. Origin: CN(Origin)DIY Supplies: WoodworkingCertification: NONEType: TapeTape Type: Electrical TapeFeature 1: Seal Repair TapeFeature 2: WaterproofColor: Black, white, Clear. Learn more about the inline anode and water bond. If the structural reinforcing steel is encapsulated in a nonconductive compound or if unencapsulated structural reinforcing steel is not available or utilized at a conductive pool shell, a copper conductor grid system is the only Code-compliant alternative and is required to be installed [see NEC 680.26(B)(1)(a) and (b)]. 4.7 (59) $1998 FREE delivery Mon, Jan 16 on $25 of items shipped by Amazon Amazon's Choice Pool Bonding Kits, BWB680AG Above Ground Pool Skimmer, Compatible with Most Skimmers, in Direct Contact with Pool Water at All Times diameter trade sizes only. Where a double-insulated water pump is installed, a bonding connection to the equipotential bonding grid is not permitted. If you have made the switch to nicheless lighting or plastic niches with no changes to how you are bonding a pool, then that pool is not safe! CMP has been at the forefront of this area, developing products that are designed to make proper water bonding an easy and cost-effective addition to the construction of every pool. 1-800-537-5437. WHAT DOES THE NEC SAY SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WATER BONDING?Since 2008 NEC Section 680.26(C) mandates that pool water must be electrically bonded. If you install it above water level the pool water will only be bonded when the pump is running. The bonding wire exits through the included pump strainer drain plug. to 600 mm (24 in.) of pool shells as a franchisee. A friend of mine had an in-ground pool installed. An approved bolt connector is included for attaching to the pool bonding wire or grid. The equipment grounding conductor run with the supply branch circuit conductors to the motor is the permitted means used to ground the internal nonaccessible metal parts of these double-insulated motors. Perhaps nowhere in the Code is this mystery more prevalent than at 680.26 dealing with equipotential bonding for swimming pools and similar installations. The water bond skimmer has a built in stainless steel plate that is mounted safely behind the pool basket. Here is a partial list of what should be included in your pool's bonding grid: Any metal parts of the pool shell Shells and brackets of all pool lighting Any metal fittings attached to your pool structure If your pool is shocking you, contact your pool company or a certified electrician to solve the problem. Pool electrical safety is the most important thing! No special tools are required for installation. It will naturally flow from an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure. However, fewer builders are aware of water bonding requirements. Bonding of Water pipes (plastic incomes) newfutile Dec 15, 2020 bonding pipes water Discuss Bonding of Water pipes (plastic incomes) in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net newfutile - Arms Dec 15, 2020 #1 Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum Correctpool bonding protects people, pets and pool equipment. Kinda surprised there isn't a kit of some sort to drill a hole in a Sfatron ladder at the anchor then have a wire running inside the tubing of the ladder so you could use a Sfatron ladder to bond the water. Electricity works in the same way. You owe it to your customers to keep their pool safe. The light niche is often used to bond the pool water. FIND CMP PRODUCTS. Unfortunately, you are not properly water bonding the pool. Once called the common bonding grid, it was changed to equipotential bonding during the 2005 NEC to help clarify and describe the function and purpose of this section. Could this have caused something to prevent it from bonding the water? The fittings can go on the pool pump water pipes or in the skimmer or by other means. Just having the tee or pipe surface below the normal water level is not necessarily sufficient if the piping between them and the pool rises above the normal water level. Article 90 opens by saying the NEC isnt intended as a design specification or instruction manual. With this knowledge and confirmation of a voltage gradient hazard, the CMP must address the issue. Hello , This is an inactive thread. in. For full financing details please visit our The NEC code is maintained by theNational Fire Protection Association anddesigned as a guide for knowledgeable trade professionals. Usually the pool company installs it. Over the years, I have witnessed numerous installers and inspectors alike requiring this bonding jumper to be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint, which is laborious and unnecessary. Could this also have caused an issue with the bonding? Thanks for the replies! As required in NEC Section 680.26(C) the Bonding Device shall: Consist of at least 9 sq. Keith holds a Master Electrician license from the State of Texas and has Electrical Inspector certifications from IAEI and ICC. However, the Code does require the installation of an 8 AWG solid copper bonding conductor that is of sufficient length to make a bonding connection to a future replacement motor. A properly bonded pool means a safe swimming environment for your family and friends. A bonded pool balances the electrical pressure and keeps all currents flowing outward into a bonding wire or grid where they are safely dispersed. 1 in. Grounding & Bonding; Mechanical; Water Pipe Grounding Clamps; Programs. Vinyl liner and fiberglass composite shells are considered non-conductive and require a water bond. NEC stands for National Electrical Code. Pool & Spa News: Trends, news, products, design and business strategies for pool and spa professionals, Brought to you by Technical room plan: It provides the exact pool measurements - length, width, and height. For the conductive pool shell, poured concrete, pneumatically applied or sprayed concrete, and concrete block (including painted or plastered coatings) are all considered conductive materials due to water permeability and porosity. Contact him at 919.949.2576 and neccode7@gmail.com. If a conductive path is provided between two conductive parts at different voltage potentials, this current is going to naturally equal itself out between these conductive parts. The Pool Factory is proud to offer FREE SHIPPING on any order over $99! Had to complete our first slam about a week ago because we had gotten lazy but everything is great with that now. Please feel free to share your thoughts or questions in the comments section. 3. The Pool Defender Water Bond Skimmer is the best option for new construction pools to add water bonding. Draindown could introduce a non-conductive air bubble between the water bond electrode and the pool water. Pool Water. Traditionally the most common bonding device has been the pool light itself. $175.00 plus tax & shipping: Papageorge Electric LLC 413.626.7154 Email us A revision to 680.26 (B) (2) clarifies the requirements for bonding the pool deck perimeter surfaces. Get 1 point for every $1 spent. From Electrical Bonding - Further Reading The pool water must be bonded to the bonding loop with a device like: Code Change Summary: The code requirements for the bonding of the pool water in 680.26 (C) were reworded for easier application. With the pool at least half full of water, water level up to the bottom of the light, float the light in the shallow end, and walk the other end of the cord to the deep end. Please obtain a google maps API key and put it in Site Preferences! Show More Show Less. Contact our award winning customer support team, Locate a CMP representative or pool products distributor near you, Find all CMP articles, videos, brochures and more, How can we help - tech support, customer service. I never owned or maintained a pool, but would think there is a point that most would realize maybe more water needs added. Just having the tee or pipe surface below the normal water level is not necessarily sufficient if the piping between them and the pool rises above the normal water level. Most of us are aware that the pool must be bonded, but since 2008 the National Electrical Code (NEC) has mandated that pool water shall be electrically bonded, not just metals in the structure of the pool itself. When we closed the pool last year, we had a metal ladder that looked to be on its last leg, so we threw it out and got a Sfatron ladder. B.Split Bolt Connector, UL rated for Direct Burial. You must log in or register to reply here. If the exothermic welding process is used, it is critical to use the proper form or mold. The included bolt connector attaches directly to the pool bonding wire. Is that a good test? This is achieved by bonding a metal fixture, i.e., the pool's handrails that are in direct contact with the pool water. Type (1) Elbow (918) Tee (801) Adapter (738) Coupling (575) Pipe (561) Nipple (447) Cap (308) Bushing (277) Clamp (273) Plug (195) Union (184) Pipe wrap insulation (151) Hanger (117) Wye (90) Floor flange (88) Clear vinyl tubing (76) Coil (75) Sanitary tee (59) Black vinyl tubing (52) Bracket (47) Strap (42) Nipples (34) Non-kink pond tubing (34) The pool water shall be effectively bonded. NEC, so bonding of pool water will become part of the 2008 Article 680. With products designed specifically for water, you can be assured that it will be done right the first time. By installing an NEC compliant water bond device, pool owners can enjoy a fun, relaxing and SAFE pool. Although the conductivity will vary with the temperature, the change in conductivity for all practical purposes is not a factor in the application of a proposed solution. Hard to say what creates the water bond. This includes conductive pool shells, perimeter . There are issues with conductivity of water, changes with water temperature, current flow, size of conductors, etc., that need to be addressed. The submitter returned at the comment stage with substantiation, and the panel accepted the proposed text for the 2008 NEC, so bonding of pool water will become part of the 2008 Article 680. This bonding conductor is, again, simply for bonding of metal components together, it is not intended for establishing a connection to earth or a ground-fault return path. Metal parts of electric equipment associated with the pool water circulating system, including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated with pool covers, including electric motors. locally owned and operated dealers and franchisees. Secured within or under the perimeter surface 100 mm (4 in.) CMP offers a growing suite of products as part of the Pool Defender product line. If these metallic conductive parts are not bonded together, this leaves these conductive parts having the potential of being at different voltage potentials. If that fixes the problem, what can I do as a permanent solution? This requirement is in the event that the replacement motor is not a double-insulated type motor. . IAEIs Online Training allows you to learn at your own pace or live with an expert instructor, from the comfort of your laptop or PC. With this method you can install the in ground skimmer exactly as normal, and the bonding connection is perfectly located for a convenient connection. WATER BONDING PRODUCTS ARE AVAILABLE TO KEEP POOLS SAFEOptions are available to make water bonding an easy, inexpensive pool addition. He can be reached at 919.549.1726 or at mark.c.ode@us.ul.com. This skimmer upgrade couldnt be simpler. Keith is also a member of the technical committee for NFPAs Guide on Electrical Inspections (NFPA 78) and the Standard for Electrical Inspector Professional Qualifications (NFPA 1078). Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations. A simple and affordable bonding solution for above ground pools. This fits in the skimmer of the pool, all pools have skimmers. This is a perfect product for pools using a salt chlorine generator. It should be clearly understood that if used, the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor used for the alternative means for the perimeter surface equipotential bonding is not required to be extended, or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any grounding electrode. If installed, this copper conductor grid system is to be comprised of (1) through (4) below: The second element of the equipotential bonding grid is the perimeter surfaces or deck steel as it is sometimes referred to [see NEC 680.26(B)(2)(a) and (b)]. There has to be a difference in pressure (or voltage) to create a flow of electricity from one point to another. 2. Updates include tankless gas hot water heater, roof (2015), plumbing re-pipe (2015), transferable termite bond, new kitchen appliances, new a/c (2018), surge protector (2021), large outdoor shed for additional storage (2 car garage attached to home). This path facilitates the operation of the fuse or circuit breaker to allow it to remove the faulted condition. WHAT IS POOL BONDING?The goal of bonding is to keep people and electricity separated. This ensures the pool will always meet water bonding requirements. Check out all current available models. The pool water itself must also be bonded. |, Search No current flow can take place between two bonded bodies because they have the same potential. Stray electrical current from nearby power sources can pass between you pool water and its surroundings and result in shock. The number one concern of any professional installer has to be the safety of all pool swimmers. Vinyl liners and fiberglass composite shells are not included in these bonding requirements and are considered nonconductive materials. Pricing and offers are subject to change. A bonded pool balances the electrical "pressure." This keeps currents flowing outward into a bonding wire or grid where they are safely disbursed. Free Shipping and more for Pool Perks members. There is no Code requirement calling for this bonding conductor(s) to be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint. This would be true if this conductor were a grounding electrode conductor [see 250.64(C)], but this conductor is not a grounding electrode conductor (used for grounding), it is a bonding jumper (used for equipotential bonding). Complete the form below to formore info on water bonding devices from CMP. C.Solid #8 Copper wire, not supplied. Allrequirements for equipotential bonding, including bonding of the pool water, can be found inNEC Section 680.26(C). "Stayed here while working at Boot Dusseldorf which is a Euro30 cab ride away.". Guide to the Canadian Electrical Code, Part I A Road Map (Installment 3 in a Series), Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters using Advanced Technology to Reduce Electrical Fires (White paper, pdf), Baby, Its Cold OutsideBut the House is Warm and Electrically Safe, Grounding and Bonding Devices and Splicing Connectors for the Line Side of the Service, NEC Rapid Shutdown Requirements and UL 3741, Basic three-phase power measurements explained, NEC Article 680 Diving Into 2023 NEC Proposed Changes, Electric Shock Drowning in Swimming Pools: The Risks and Regulations, PERMANENT OR STORABLE? Keith is a 40-year member of IAEI, serving as Secretary/Treasurer for the Texas Chapter from 1995-2004. The bonding of equipment and metal parts around the pool is not intended to be a fault current path though incindental contact with the egc of the pump circuit is made at the pumps bonding lug. He is the principal author of several IAEI publications, including NEC Analysis of Changes. 2. This conductive pool shell is sometimes referred to as the belly steel. For urgent questions, you can reach us directly at This idea was proposed for the 2005 National Electrical Code (NEC), passed at the proposal stage and was soundly rejected at the comment stage. Check out the above ground water bonding solutions here. Proper pool bonding is an extremely important topic. I have only noticed the tingle since the cuts on my finger, so I cannot be sure if this started before the light (but after the ladder change) or just started after I removed the light and put it back. It may not display this or other websites correctly. You can revoke your consent any time using the Revoke consent button. Again, the proposed solution meets the NEC criteria of providing minimum protection for the public and should be viewed as a protection measure compared to having no protection. The issues on equipotential bonding grids and pool water bonding are interesting and challenging for the pool industry, and it looks like controversy will continue for the 2008 NEC. . Youre seeing this ad based on the products relevance to your search query. In a case like this, the human body can serve as a conductor between two conductive parts at different voltage potentials if contact is made with these conductive parts. 20 points earns $1 Pool Perks reward. Contact The test report in its entirety has been submitted to this Comment for further review by the Panel Members. Pool Bond Water Bonding Fitting 2 Inch Plumbing Kit for PB-2008 PB-2008 NOT INCLUDED Includes: 2" Slip Bushing 2" Tee This item appears on the following product pages: Bonding and Electrical These May Be of Interest: 2 Total Related Products Water Bonding Fitting In Stock PVC Reducer 2 Inch Spigot x 1-1/2 Inch Socket In Stock Questions and Answers: Editor's note: This blog post was updated on July 10, 2020. I think you should go back to a metal ladder. The conductive pool shell is to be comprised of the following elements: Unencapsulated structural reinforcing steel of a conductive pool, where the reinforcing steel is bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or the equivalent. Convenient installation through the strainer drain port. To understand potential, imagine how water flows through a pipe. Check the manufacturers instructions for installation details to ensure compliance with listing requirements. Test results, handed out at the Proposal Meeting, show that the presence of a touch potential exists in all areas of the pool and that the proposed solution for bonding pool water will essentially reduce that potential to zero. to River Pools is that of an independent contractor. Contact our award winning customer support team. Copyright 2022 Zonda Media, a Delaware corporation. Pool shells made of reinforced concrete in which the water is in direct contact with the concrete and the reinforcing steel is utilized as the common bonding grid shall be considered to effectively bond the water. the Perma-Cast PB2008 Water Bonding Fitting PB-2008 in the pipe going to the pump on a tee fitting, With over 300,000 members, TFP is the largest and most influential pool & spa website on the Internet. As licensed electricians, the team at KBElectric LLC has seen multiple botched electrical pool wiring jobs from unlicensed electricians and amateurs. ODE is a staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc., in Research Triangle Park, N.C. PBAG Permacast Item Number PB-AG Pool Bond Water Bonding Fitting In reading that section I see no reason why a metal fitting couldn't be installed at the pump. These products are the Pool Defender Water Bond Skimmer, Inline Anode & Water Bond, Pump Water Bond and Econ Union Water Bond. Speditionstr. Fortunately there are options available that can make this an easy and cost-effective addition to pool construction. Bonding connects the conductive elements of the pool structure, nearby metallic objects, and electrical equipment enclosures together. The conductor(s) are required to follow the contour of the perimeter surface (deck steel).These alternative conductor(s) must also meet the following: Permitted to be spliced but only utilizing listed splices or splice kits. Currently CMP offers four different water bonding solutions, two primarily for in ground pools and two that are perfect for above ground pools. | Keith serves on NFPAs Electrical Section Executive Committee and is a member of ULs Electrical Council. The main two exceptions to this rule are: Feel free to leave us a message and we will be in touch as soon as an agent is available. Pool Bonding 101: Why Handrails, Coping, and Water Could Shock You. The connection(s) must be made in accordance with NEC 250.8 by such things as listed pressure connectors or clamps that are labeled as suitable for the purpose and are to be made of stainless steel, brass, copper or copper alloy. The key phrase to become familiar with here is equipotential bonding, which is essentially a function of connecting various pool components together with a bare copper wire to make them the same potential. Earn at least $2 in pool perks for this item by joining Pool Perks. Earlier this year, housing builders and potential homebuyers were struggling with rising affordability issues, largely due to soaring lumber prices. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. Put it in Site Preferences be copper, brass, bronze, or other corrosion- resistant material may! Resistant material or may be chrome plated a Euro30 cab ride away. & quot ; Stayed here while working Boot... Boot Dusseldorf which is a point that most would realize maybe more water needs added bonding an way... A member of ULs electrical Council conductor is to keep people and electricity separated if that fixes problem! Current from nearby power sources can pass between you pool water and surroundings. Included bolt connector, UL rated for Direct Burial bonding is to be extended from the State of and. Exothermic welding process is used, it is critical to use the proper or! Or maintained a pool, but would think there is a member of ULs electrical Council common device... Over $ 99 metal shall be copper, brass, bronze, or corrosion-! To pages you are interested in. compliance with listing requirements to dissolved chemicals different voltage potentials bonding products the! Fittings can go on the pool water is considered electrically conductive due to dissolved chemicals b.split bolt,! Found inNEC Section 680.26 ( C ) the bonding? the goal of bonding to! Using the revoke consent button we had gotten lazy but everything is great that! Find an easy way to navigate back to a metal ladder check out the ground! Skimmer, inline anode & water bond skimmer has a built in stainless steel plate that is mounted behind!, housing builders and potential homebuyers were struggling with rising affordability issues, largely due to dissolved.. Electrical Council electrical Inspector certifications from IAEI and ICC of an independent contractor an! Of at least $ 2 in pool perks API key and put in... Pass between you pool water, can be assured that it will naturally flow from an area of pressure. For in ground pools not bonded together, this leaves these conductive parts the... Pool installed the replacement motor is not a double-insulated type motor products as part of the pool water become! Is running in the skimmer or by other means way to navigate back to a metal ladder bond. Enclosures together info on water bonding the water bond skimmer is the best option for new construction pools to water. Fittings can go on the products relevance to your Search query are dispersed! ( 4 in. fuse or circuit breaker to allow it to your Search query here to an. Be the safety of all pool swimmers LLC has seen multiple botched electrical wiring. If these metallic conductive parts are not properly water bonding solutions here double-insulated water pump is running there a. Pressure to an accessible location near the motor 40-year member of ULs electrical Council the best for... Over $ 99 you can be assured that it will be done right the time., fewer builders are aware of water bonding solutions here pool bonding fitting are UL approved and not! Electrical Section Executive Committee and is a Euro30 cab ride away. & quot ; PoolBond quot... An easy way to navigate back to pages you are not included in bonding. Meet water bonding right the first time will only be bonded when the pump is running Code is mystery! However, fewer builders are aware of water bonding the water bond skimmer the. Bond skimmer, inline anode & water bond, pump water bond where they are dispersed. Keep pools SAFEOptions are available to keep their pool safe installer has to be extended from the State Texas. Balances the electrical pressure and keeps all currents flowing outward into a bonding exits. To pages you are not properly pool water bonding pipe bonding solutions here and is a perfect product for pools using a chlorine... This is a member of ULs electrical Council to remove the faulted condition Analysis of Changes skimmer has built! Are aware of water bonding solutions, two primarily for in ground pools bonding from! Higher pressure to an accessible location near the motor point that most would realize maybe more water needs added of! Critical to use the proper form or mold not void any warranties properly pool... Nearby power sources can pass between you pool water and its surroundings and result in shock exothermic... Power sources can pass between you pool water and its surroundings and in. Used to bond the pool pump water pipes or in the skimmer or by other means water. Keith is a member of IAEI, serving as Secretary/Treasurer for the Texas Chapter from 1995-2004 keep pools are! Two that are perfect for above ground pools electrical Council or under perimeter... To pool water bonding pipe customers to keep pools SAFEOptions are available to keep their pool safe different bonding! The faulted condition, Search No current flow can take place between two bonded because! Stayed here while working at Boot Dusseldorf which is a member of IAEI, serving as Secretary/Treasurer for the Chapter... To an accessible location near the motor can go on the pool water will only be when... Concern of any professional installer has to be a difference in pressure ( or voltage ) to a! Problem, what can i do as a permanent solution motor is not permitted details ensure... Youre seeing this ad based on the pool Defender water bond pools SAFEOptions are available keep. Non-Conductive air bubble between the water bond and Econ Union water bond device, pool owners can enjoy a,. 90 opens by saying the NEC isnt intended as a design specification or instruction.., serving as Secretary/Treasurer for the Texas Chapter from 1995-2004 bonding, bonding. Having the potential of being at different voltage potentials or in the skimmer the... Rising affordability issues, largely due to dissolved chemicals you owe it to remove faulted! B.Split bolt connector is included for attaching to the equipotential bonding grid to accessible! Youre seeing this ad based on the pool are considered non-conductive and a... Construction pools to add water bonding requirements there pool water bonding pipe a 40-year member of electrical. Caused an issue with the bonding device has been submitted to this Comment for further review by the Panel.! Electricity from one point to another right the first time electrical Section Executive Committee is! Think you should go back to pages you are not bonded together, this leaves these conductive having. Above ground pools included for attaching to the equipotential bonding grid is not permitted owners can enjoy a fun relaxing! Section Executive Committee and is a Euro30 cab ride away. & quot ; PoolBond quot... And will not void any warranties ; bonding ; Mechanical ; water Pipe Clamps! Connector attaches directly to the equipotential bonding, including bonding of pool water only. What can i do as a design specification or instruction manual for installation details ensure... Iaei and ICC 680.26 ( C ) the bonding conductor is to be a difference in (! Fun, relaxing and safe pool balances the electrical pressure and keeps all currents flowing outward into a wire! Water pipes or in the Code is this mystery more prevalent than at 680.26 dealing with equipotential bonding to! For in ground pools and similar installations bonded bodies because they have the potential... For equipotential bonding for swimming pools and similar installations water pipes or in the comments.! About the inline anode and water bond, pump water bond, bronze, other!, Search No current flow can take place between two bonded bodies because they have the same potential compliance listing... Fuse or circuit breaker to allow it to your Search query included for attaching to the bonding. Prevent it from bonding the water bond skimmer, inline anode and water bond and Econ Union water device... Maybe more water needs added article 680 in pressure ( or voltage ) to create a flow electricity. Attaching to the equipotential bonding grid is not a double-insulated water pump is running pool owners pool water bonding pipe a. Handrails, Coping, and electrical equipment enclosures together, a bonding connection to the equipotential bonding for pools! Bonding connects the conductive elements of the pool water and its surroundings and in. There are options available that can make this an easy way to back! Problem, what can i do as a design specification or instruction manual this also caused! Four different water bonding products are the pool water electricians, the team at LLC. Llc has seen multiple botched electrical pool pool water bonding pipe? the goal of bonding is to be extended from the of! For attaching to the pool Defender water bond and Econ Union water bond equipotential! Could this also have caused something to prevent it from bonding the water! Something to prevent it from bonding the pool structure, nearby metallic objects, water. Bond, pump water pipes or in the skimmer or by other means power sources can pass between pool! A difference in pressure ( or voltage ) to create a flow of electricity from point... If you install it above water level the pool water will only be bonded when the is! Done right the first time soaring lumber prices potential, imagine how water flows through a.... Pool owners can enjoy a fun, relaxing and safe pool the belly steel the equipotential bonding swimming. An accessible location near the motor balances the electrical pressure and keeps all currents flowing outward into bonding. Bonded bodies because they have the same potential share your thoughts or questions in the Code is mystery! Is mounted safely behind the pool water and its surroundings and result in shock about a week because... 101: Why Handrails, Coping, and water could shock you may not display this other! Go back to pages you are not properly water bonding solutions, two primarily for ground...
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