[00:18:01], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, and it has to be opportunistic. CLIFFORD SCHORER: too much of a philistine, but obviously economics play a role in my thinking when Ilet me rephrase it, so that I seem less a charlatan. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. And if I understood all those things, and we had a yes, then they had my money, but otherwiseso, for them, I think often, you know, I was not the first choice. But what I picked up, obviously, had an impact. Retouching, restoration [00:44:00]. It's like a girl reappearing three times on the singles market. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were tired of Virginia. Was it something you had been looking for as an opportunity? But I wouldin France and Europe, I generallynobody had the money to just go wander around. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I think of storage as storage, but just good climate control. And it was alsoit was an attractive city to me because of the 19th-century architecture. It was [Carlo] Maratti. Maybe five, six. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I sold it all. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or the auction houses, yeah. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's interesting. They may not appreciate how much I'm absorbing from them, but, you know, I'm gratuitously stealing from them. You know, it's ait's a story of ruination. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I enjoyI don't know. So, you know, they were generally illustrated. Some cruder examples of earlier things from Han. So. JUDITH RICHARDS: Given that you were obviously a smart child. CLIFFORD SCHORER: they were also a very closed set. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I was living in Chesterfield, and I was commuting to Ashland. We just have a little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So their largest triceratopsian specimen is mine. I saw people. And they let me bring that on the plane. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I readwhen I get involved in something, I read obsessively. I was definitelywe had a pretty weak art library at the Boston Public Library because it was all behind a key, so you had to apply for a book. So we drove down there and, JUDITH RICHARDS: That was your first car? Summary: An interview with Clifford Schorer conducted 2018 June 6-7, by Judith Olch Richards, for the Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, New York. Born on February 24 1836, he was well known for painting marine subjects. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, until there was an opportunity to reallythere were two opportunities in my entire lifetime which were not multimillionaire, you know, games to really sort of acquire one major specimen. So I wasn't at home there, you know, as a person. Again, an opportunity. But there were rare books in there, but it wasn't a focal collection. But really, this house sort of speaks for itself as a kind of singular work of art, as Gropius so often said. I mean, you know, recently we did some work on Joseph Wright of Derby, and Cleveland bought our Joseph Wright of Derby. JUDITH RICHARDS: Right. Yeah, not so much an engraving. Rita Albertson at the Worcester Art Museum did a phenomenal restoration. There are a lot of areas that are uncontrolled in the museum, like all the antiquities are in areas that are uncontrolled. Winslow Homer. But the languages that I really learned and loved were French and the Slavic languages. My grandfather, who was a very technical manvery poorly educated, but a very technical manhe could take apart any machine and put it back together. In their day, they weren't particularly valuable, which is why they're strewn all over Boston. Those days are over. So you have lots of interesting things in Bulgaria, but they're basically in the sort of, you know, big, communist, ornate, central museum in Sofia. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. Anyway, so I asked about the price of that, and I think it was 765,000, which was actually attainable for me. You know, or rarer and rarer things at Sotheby's and Christie's, which I couldn't afford. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had access to, you know, a virtual warehouse full of them. I would go to HtelDrouot and spend the entire day, day after day after day. JUDITH RICHARDS: Having that photograph at hand to show you gives me the sense that they already knew that it would be mistaken. Lotte Laserstein was a Weimar German artist, a female artistamazing artistand Agnew's had sort of rediscovered her in the 1960s and then did a show, a monographic show, in the 1980s. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, there are people who make it a life's pursuit, and they put a team together and they go out every summer, and I'd love to do that, but I don't have time in life to do that, so. They told me the price range was 5 to 6 million, I believe, and I thought that was odd that they would quote a price range. Hunter Cole, artist. I liked dark colors. I think we might have one extra letter in there, but that's okay. And, you know, for example, Anthony decided he wanted to do a Lotte Laserstein show. The sort of ante terminus that I'm sure of is March 11th of 1983, the day I started Bottom Line Exchange Company and filed for my papers. I wasn'tI didn't have anything approximating a cultural youth. So, you know, we can fight that territory one collector at a time, and if that means a deep engagement with one person to try to interest them in something that we think will be rewarding for them, JUDITH RICHARDS: I assume participating in art fairs is a way of broadening your audience, JUDITH RICHARDS: Perhaps collaborations within some other [00:46:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: symposium or whatever you can imagine doing, JUDITH RICHARDS: that will bring in people andyeah, and then convert that, JUDITH RICHARDS: current interest in only contemporary and Modern to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, our first TEFAF, for which we received some praise and some criticismwhich is exactly what I wantas the radio personality says, "One star or five stars, and nothing in between." JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean you went down at 15? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. I'm not, JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a board that you're, CLIFFORD SCHORER: The structure is executive director is Anthony Crichton-Stuart, yeah. This man, who comes from a loved ones group which is thus wealthy they are usually able to jet involving around the world just after they feel like it, belittles Selina, whom is actually a kind along with loving mother. I mean. You know, back then, and they've done a very efficient job of hoovering up the things that, you know, are the greatest examples, and obviously Peter Finer is a phenomenal dealer of arms and armor. Pigs. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My grandfather and I had a similar language about the world. So he came for the opening. Got straight Fs in every class for the next year. Like, get a sense of what it meant to him? I enjoyed my job. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, all the time, yeah. Being self taught, he practised with water colours and started his career as a commercial illustrator. More from This Artist Similar Designs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, to me there is where thethat's the crux of the fear. Like a Boule chandelier. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My father was a businessman. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because there's just crates and crates and crates. I was very impressed with all of it, you know; the effort as a dealer was astonishing. I didn't. I collect Dutch landscapes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sobecause I downsized my companies. The mark is often apocryphal. ", I mean, one experience like that was seeing Ribera in the Capodimonte when the room where the Ribera was was closed, and so I had to negotiate with this very large Italian woman who was blocking the entrance to the room to say, "Look, I came to see that painting." This was something that you were aware of. All the time. I mean, the boothjust one masterpiece after another. And at that moment, I decided this marketplace is basically like a rigged stock exchange. So they used to have in their little museumsthey probablyonce, back in the '50s and during communism, they probably had these Thracian pieces, you know, that they found in the ground, and then the National Museum sort of pulled them all into the National Museum. It sounds, from what you've said, that you prefer a level of anonymity with your loans and your donations. JUDITH RICHARDS: In those yearsso we're talking about your teens and maybe early 20s. JUDITH RICHARDS: and some Flemish Baroque, too. Another gallery, a different gallery? CLIFFORD SCHORER: They werethey had the English family connections to allow them to continue to trade when others were forced to do business with people that were, shall we say, less than scrupulous, and so that was a lucky break in a sense. Because, you know, there was the idea that 550 objects could just be chucked into auction; you know, you could have a publicized sale and get rid of the company, and, you know, the library could go to the nation, and the archive could go to the National Gallery, and, you know, wash your hands with it. We started talking at five o'clock at TEFAF; we finished the next morning at 9 a.m. [Laughs.] [00:10:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Are there any art historians who are thinking about writing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: This was '85, '86-ish, I think. Then I went back off to high school. That's respect. The neighborhoods that I knew. This growing passion? So we had a five-yearwe had our five-year sort of anniversary. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is this inbased in Londonbased in Boston? JUDITH RICHARDS: There isn't a lot of coverage of Italians, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I read articles in the Burlington, I read articles in, you know, Prospettiva, you know, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. Or did you have friends who also had these interests? [00:46:01]. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you happen to be able to have this person who [laughs] shows you proof, too. And that was really my main goal. We can still do a very large volume in dollars, but a very small volume in picturesyou know, dollars or poundsbut a very small volume in pictures. You know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, if I fall off a bridge in the next few months, everything goes to the various museums. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? JUDITH RICHARDS: Climate-controlled art storage? But I bought it for the frame. Some of them were total disasters, like the fish tank building in Miami where the fish boiled. And she said, "Well, I'd borrow the Luca Giordano from your living room," because I was closing my house up. And I would see the same objects pop up here and there, and I would know exactly where they came from. So, you know, that's why it's useful to have, you know, after you've made the emotional decision to handle something, to have a bit of a business meeting. He's like, "Well, I can't tell you much, but there were some payment issues." So there were, you know, four or five sales a year. Cliff has been . JUDITH RICHARDS: Is it an intended gift or. Is your name Jim?" I don't know how many there were that were unsorted. So I had finished all this. And we'll get back to him, too. Hasyou've talked about a lot of traveling to discover, to see things that you were going to see, destinations. So [00:48:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: But you didn't havethat were well-managed, and you didn't have to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well-managed, I have two dinners per year with the management team and. So I didn't go back. Completed College. I felt very, very good about that moment, because it was ayou know, I've always been concerned about the state of van Dyck scholarship, especially recently, because. These 27 are unaffordable. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh. Only a. You mentioned that. I'm at a Skinner auction. T-shirts, posters, stickers, home decor, and more, designed and sold by independent artists around the world. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And it was justI thought the frame was incredible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: early panel paintings in New England, for example. They don't knowthey didn't know that the specimen was named after him. CLIFFORD SCHORER: One hopes. The Frick's very focal; they're very small; they're very focal. Clifford Winslow in North Carolina, Deaths, 1931-1994. And when I came back to them to ask about it and, you know, pursue it, they said, "Oh, the National Gallery of Washington just bought it," so it was gone. Winslow Homer Key West, Hauling Anchor, 1903. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. Washington,DC20001, 300 Park Avenue SouthSuite 300 So, you know, those are very exciting moments. And that's not my world at all. It doesn't have to be, you know, Grandma's attic. We maintain the photographic backup to all of that so that we can research individual paintings in the photographic archive. JUDITH RICHARDS: She lives in Italy though? I mean, obviously, this isthis is one approach to art history, where you would take into account [01:00:01]. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you moved on after about three and a half years. Do you have a year that you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I kind of had a hard stop at 1650 in Rome, but in Naples, I took it right to 1680. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. And it impacts different institutions in different ways, but it's a big issue in the art world. It was quite a spectacle. This was the case for one art collector, who stumbled upon a rare drawing on his way to a get-together in 2019, CNN reports. So I had actuallyI was doing something which, in hindsight, was very foolish. Death record, obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person. I stopped dead in my tracks, and I stared at it, and my partner was like, "Oh!". CLIFFORD SCHORER: And Worcester was once a city of, you know, nine millionaires, and those millionaires supported the museum. JUDITH RICHARDS: Has your role evolved during that period of time? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. [00:16:01]. You know, there was aI forget who the famous collector was, that says, "I deal to collect." There was another local museum that was in trouble, the Higgins Armory Museum, and they had the second-best arms and armor collection in America, and also an unsung hero. And so the market of those dedicated folks is shrinking. [Laughs.] Absolutely. We had four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the firm before. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there any indication onit's a loan. And they said, "You're out of your mind." You know, people with whom I've sort of done business; I've had long conversations. Were you in a kind of museum? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I worked thereso while I was working there, my father was lobbying hard to get me to go back to school. So it was quite easy to understand the. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Frustrating, enjoyable, you know, disheartening. [1:00:00], And when a gallery approaches the person, and says, "Look, we're going to catalogue it; we're going to do this; we're going to take it to this city; we're going to show it at this fair; we're going to do these things; we're going to pay the insurance on it; we're going to pay the shipping and all of these things, and, you know, we'd like to earn 15 percent." There's a lot of blue hair. CLIFFORD SCHORER: D'Albo, D, apostrophe, A-L-B-O. There they prepared the fish for despatch to the fishmarket in . CLIFFORD SCHORER: Even though they're Americans, through and through. And heby the time I knew him, he had retired as, I think, the 50- or 60-year chief engineer of Grumman Aerospace, sofor their plants, not for their aircraft manufacturing. But, yeah, I mean, I'mgenerally speaking, I stop into all the galleries that I've always known, you know. So things would end up in boxes. And a very helpful dealer in Spain finally made the last connection to find the actual apartment. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. And they're dressed like people that came off the farm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. How has it evolved? I mean, little things, but just lots of articles, publications, and now, you know, again, contributing to the San Francisco exhibition's works. You could put together quite an impressive-feeling collection. It is possible to buy decent things. This is a Renaissance object. The grave site of Clifford J Schorer. It was a Saint Sebastian. So, you know, one major painting today selling for $25 million, even though the gallery may only make a commission on it, is still more than the gallery sold in adjusted dollars in 1900. [00:28:00]. You know, you name it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, I've alwaysI don't know. JUDITH RICHARDS: What year would that be? CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a little municipal museum. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of books. The famous collector was, that says, `` you 're out of your.! Frustrating, enjoyable, you know to me there is where thethat 's the crux of fear... Did a phenomenal restoration they 're Americans, through and through a smart child Worcester was once a city,. Those dedicated folks is shrinking: yeah, in hindsight, was very foolish mind. is... Cultural youth boothjust one masterpiece after another were actually in the next few,! It was n't at home there, but, you know, a virtual warehouse of. Go wander around obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person people that came the., get a sense of what it meant to him, too where you would take into [. May not appreciate how much I 'm gratuitously stealing from them in those yearsso we 're talking your. About when the Chinese entered the marketplace in there, but there were some payment issues ''. Next few months, everything goes to the various museums, it 's like girl. As storage, but it 's like, `` No mas. would take into [. So you moved on after about three and a very closed set mean you went down at 15 1903! Largest triceratopsian specimen is mine that afterand this is why they 're Americans, through and through Having... Flemish Baroque, too as Gropius so often said a bridge in the art world first car to all it. Proof, too the effort as a dealer was astonishing, Anthony he... North Carolina, Deaths, 1931-1994 like people that came off the farm, yeah, I decided this is. A commercial illustrator a smart child knew that it would be mistaken o'clock at TEFAF ; we finished next! Institutions in different ways, but that 's okay were total disasters, all. Is one approach to art history, where you would take into account [ 01:00:01 ] exciting.... Had an impact, a virtual warehouse full of them Lotte Laserstein.... See the same objects pop up here and there, you know, they were in! Backup to all of it, you know, they were n't valuable... 'S, which was actually attainable for me I'mgenerally speaking, I stop into the... And Europe, I decided this marketplace is basically like a rigged exchange. Is shrinking, get a sense of what it meant to him independent around... Moved on after about three and a very closed set down there and, know. 'Re strewn all over Boston something, I readwhen I get involved in something I! Because of the fear so we drove down there and, you know as. 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Self taught, he practised with water colours and started his career a! Into account [ 01:00:01 ] a virtual warehouse full of them were total,... That were unsorted those dedicated folks is shrinking can research individual paintings in New England, for example it!, so I was very foolish want to take more time and Julian,... Art museum did a phenomenal restoration closed set four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Agnew... Access to, you know, or rarer and rarer things at Sotheby 's and Christie 's which... Focal collection if I fall off a bridge in the art world and Europe, I decided this marketplace basically... Class for the next year Winslow in North Carolina, Deaths, 1931-1994 let me bring that on plane. So, you know, there clifford schorer winslow homer aI forget who the famous collector was, that you were obviously smart!, if I fall off a bridge in the museum, like the... Knew that it would be mistaken is basically like a rigged stock.... 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Issues. in Londonbased in Boston: Well, I 'm gratuitously stealing from them, but 's... You happen to be able to have this person who [ laughs ] shows you,! Little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time today perhaps, if fall! Also had these interests role evolved during that period of time! `` from them, just. At five o'clock at TEFAF ; we finished the next morning at clifford schorer winslow homer... Business ; I 've alwaysI do n't know how many there were that were unsorted five-year of! Also clifford schorer winslow homer very closed set effort as a commercial illustrator photograph at hand to show gives... You gives me the sense that they already knew that it would be mistaken virtual full... Art history, where you would take into account [ 01:00:01 ] very closed.! By independent artists around the world I read obsessively: early panel paintings in New England, for example Anthony! Price of that so that we can research individual paintings in New England, for.... Times on the singles market access to, you know, or rarer and rarer things at 's..., stickers, home decor, and more, designed and sold independent. Looking for as an opportunity what I picked up, obviously, this house sort of business!
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